Have you heard of Top Tier Gasoline?

[Bow_Tied]

This was new to me, just wondering if I am the last to hear of it?

http://www.toptiergas.com/

[Morpheus]

I haven't heard it called this, but I've heard about the subject.

We have been stung more than I'd like to admit with customer's coming in with cars under warranty, and they have a check engine light on.

Diagnostics all lead towards a problem with the way the oxygen sensors are working, and we run in circles trying to figure it out.

In the end, it's the fuel that is in the tank.

It's gotten so bad, that Nissan has partnered with a fuel testing facility, and has supplied the dealers with a fuel collection kit. When the quality of fuel is in question, we can send a sample in, and within 48 hours (iirc) we get a full analysis of the fuel.

Worst part, is if it's bad fuel, it's not covered by warranty, and all of a sudden we're handing a customer a bill, or we end up having to eat it at the dealer level.

I noticed a huge difference in my Rogue between using Husky fuel and Petro-Canada fuel, almost 75km/tank less on the Husky gas.

Quickly went back to petro.

[Bow_Tied]

Wow.


And double wow, 75km is a huge amount!! I am guessing that is ~15%?

[Miner]

We purchase all of our gasoline (premium fuel) from Canadian Tire Gas Plus. I've sent them a request for information on being Top Tier and requested the name of their fuel supplier. I believe the supplier is UPI, which after reading there website I'm now concerned that there premium 91 fuel contains ethanol. If this is true we will be switching to Petro Canada or Esso immediately.

[Adam]

I usually fill up at Canadian tire too...Unfortunately I use 87 which has ethanol pretty much everywhere you go. But the amount of ct money I get on my MasterCard is nice...Maybe I will start using the esso right beside it and compare results.

[Miner]

Looks like ALL Petro Canada grades now contain ethanol, from 5%-10%.

Ethanol-blended gasoline
Ethanol-blended gasoline is a fuel that typically contains up to 10% ethanol in unleaded gasoline. We use ethanol in our gasoline where legislation requires its use and where conditions warrant. The Federal Government has regulated that motor gasoline sold in Canada after Sept. 1, 2010 must contain an annual pool average of 5% ethanol. Different provincial mandates also exist, some with higher ethanol pool requirements. Because of these mandates, most grades of Petro-Canada fuel may now contain up to 10% ethanol. This represents a change from the previous state, where premium fuel was ethanol-free at Petro-Canada. To find out if ethanol-blended gasoline is sold at a station look for the yellow labels in the pump area indicating that the fuel may contain a maximum of 10% ethanol.

[Miner]

Checking Esso and found this:

We recommend checking with the manufacturer and consulting your warranty before using ethanol blended gasoline in small engines.*

*"Ethanol."Natural Resources Canada. 16 Nov. 2013. Government of Canada. 06 May 2014 http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/alternati ... hanol/3493 and http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/alternati ... hanol/3501

I'm starting to think I may have to give up and accept ethanol in our on road vehicles. However based on notes like this and the long storage time of boats, atvs, generators, etc we need retailers to carry ethanol free fuels.

Next step will be confirming with Yamaha, Ski-Doo, Arctic Cat and Polaris that an ethanol blend will not harm their products.

[buttsy]

Checking Esso and found this:

We recommend checking with the manufacturer and consulting your warranty before using ethanol blended gasoline in small engines.*

*"Ethanol."Natural Resources Canada. 16 Nov. 2013. Government of Canada. 06 May 2014 http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/alternati ... hanol/3493 and http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/alternati ... hanol/3501

I'm starting to think I may have to give up and accept ethanol in our on road vehicles. However based on notes like this and the long storage time of boats, atvs, generators, etc we need retailers to carry ethanol free fuels.

Next step will be confirming with Yamaha, Ski-Doo, Arctic Cat and Polaris that an ethanol blend will not harm their products.

Just means we have to start buying additives to remove the additives for engines that don't react well to additives. It's an additive conspiracy! THOSE BASTARDS!

[Snafu]

If being stored for long periods then a full tank of non-ethanol gasoline would be the best option to prevent accumulation of water.

Shell V-Power premium gasoline in Canada does not contain ethanol.

This is what I put in the Subaru GT (turbo requires 91+)

Link

That same link also says:

Shell V-Power contains the highest concentration of the Nitrogen Enriched Cleaning System.
With five times the cleaning agents required by federal standards, Shell V-Power helps to clean up performance-robbing engine gunk even faster than Shell Bronze gasoline.

Shell V-Power premium gasoline exceeds the TOP TIER Gasoline Detergent Standard and is Top Tier certified

ah FFS!!!

So when warranty work is voided because of these additives it is once again it is left to the consumer to pursue the dealer and the petro companies to recoup their loss <irk>.

Where is the government and car companies in all of this?

[Miner]

From Yamaha, back in 2009

"MOTORCYCLE

5/07/2009

M2009-009

SUBJECTS: 1. All Models – E10 Fuel (Gasoline Containing 10% Ethanol)

©2009 YAMAHA MOTOR CORPORATION, U.S.A.

All Models – E10 Fuel (Gasoline Containing 10% Ethanol)

E10 fuel, a mixture of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol, has been introduced into various regions of the United
States and, in many locations, E10 fuel is the only type available.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has implemented Ground Level Ozone Air Quality standards. Part
of the EPA’s strategy to meet these standards requires the addition of fuel oxygenates to gasoline to improve
the internal combustion process. Ethanol or MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether) are approved fuel oxygenates.


Ethanol has a very high octane rating and, when mixed with low octane unleaded gasoline, increases the
octane level of unleaded gasoline. Ethanol also has some less desirable properties that are explained
below.

MTBE does not have negative effects on engine fuel systems but does have some negative environmental
issues; it does not biodegrade easily and is a suspected carcinogen. MTBE contamination from leaking underground
fuel storage tanks has been detected in ground water supplies. Many states are now prohibiting the
use of MTBE.

The following questions and answers will provide important information regarding the use of fuel containing
ethanol.

Q. Are Yamaha engines compatible with E10 fuel?

A. Yes, all current models as well as most engines built since the late 1980s have been designed with fuel
system components that are tolerant to fresh fuel containing ethanol up to 10% (E10).

Q. Can I use fuel with a higher percentage of ethanol, such as E15 or E85?

A. No, all of the negative issues discussed below will be increased and may cause major damage to the
engine.

Q. What are the properties of ethanol in E10 fuel that make it less compatible with fuel systems than
straight gasoline?

A. Ethanol has several properties that contribute to fuel system issues:

• Ethanol is hygroscopic (i.e., it has a strong attraction to moisture).

• Ethanol is a strong cleaner (solvent).

• Ethanol produces less energy (BTUs) than an equivalent unit of gasoline.

Q. What issues are caused by ethanol’s attraction to water?

A. Ethanol molecules have a stronger bond to water molecules than to gasoline molecules. In the absence
of water, ethanol and gasoline molecules will bond. When water is added to E10 fuel, the bond between
the ethanol and gasoline will weaken. When the percentage of water in E10 fuel reaches approximately
0.5%, the bond between the ethanol and gasoline molecules will break and the ethanol molecules will
attach to the water molecules. This is called phase separation. The ethanol and water molecules settle to
the bottom of the fuel tank forming a distinct layer of water & ethanol on the bottom and gasoline without
ethanol on the top. As little as 1.6 oz. of water can promote phase separation in 2.5 gals of E10 fuel. The
result would be 33.6 oz. of unusable ethanol and water mixture on the bottom of the tank.

Q. What happens when phase separation occurs?

A. Several things happen:

• Fuel for the engine is drawn from the bottom of the tank. An engine will not run properly, if at all, on
the ethanol and water mixtures.

• The ethanol and water mixture is very corrosive to some metals and can cause corrosion or rust in
the fuel tank and damage internal engine components.

• The remaining gasoline, without ethanol, will have an octane level below the original E10 fuel’s octane
level, approximately 2~3 points lower. This octane level may be below engine requirements.



Q. Can phase separation be reversed?

A. No, there are no additives or processes that will recombine phase separated ethanol and gasoline.

Q. Can I use the gasoline remaining after removal of the phase separated water and alcohol?

A. No. The remaining gasoline, without ethanol, will have an octane level below the original E10 fuel’s octane
level, approximately 2 ~ 3 points lower. This octane level may be below the requirements of the engine.

Q. What issues are caused by ethanol’s strong cleaning (solvent) properties?

A. It is normal for gasoline to leave varnish deposits and for surface corrosion to occur inside the tanks and
pipes used for fuel transportation and storage: rust on steel and oxides on aluminum. Ethanol will clean
any varnish as well as rust and oxides from any surface it contacts. Gasoline without ethanol does not
clean the varnish, rust or oxides. Since ethanol is added at the distributor facilities, it will clean any storage
pipes and tanks, truck tanks, gas station storage tanks and your engine fuel systems. The amount
of material cleaned from all of these systems can quickly exceed the filtration capacity of filters located in
fuel systems resulting in restricted fuel flow. If these clogged filters are not replaced, engine performance
is reduced and potential damage to the engine can occur.

Q. What issues are caused by ethanol’s lower energy content (BTUs) than an equivalent unit of gasoline?


A. E10 fuel will produce approximately 3% less power than gasoline. This is not enough to be noticed in most
applications.

Q. How long can E10 fuel be stored?

A. There are many different opinions concerning how long it is okay to store any fuel (E10 fuel or gasoline),
2 weeks, 90 days, ???, before losing the properties that are required for proper and safe operation of your
engine. There are too many variables, such as the age of fuel when purchased, temperature, humidity,
use of stabilizers and the type of storage containers to accurately predict how long.

Q. What can I do to reduce or prevent issues with E10 fuel?

A. Total prevention of issues may not be possible but there are steps you can take to minimize the occurrence
and severity of the negative affects of E10 fuel:

• Remove any accumulated water from the fuel tank periodically (water in fuel can cause microorgan-
ism growth.

• Avoid mixing E10 and MTBE gasoline blends. Mixing may cause precipitates to form which can clog
filters.

• Do not drain a used filter and reinstall. Contaminated fuel can enter the filtered side of the filter while
draining.

• Buy name brand fuel.

• Buy fuel from the same source if possible.

• Buy fuel from stations that have newer, cleaner storage tanks.

• Avoid storing fuel in a vented container such as a motorcycle fuel tank or vented gas can (reduces
evaporation of vital fuel components).

• Keep stored fuel in as cool an area as possible (reduces evaporation of vital fuel components).

• Regularly use Yamalube Fuel Stabilizer and Conditioner to retard fuel aging.

NOTE: Stabilizers do not help fuel that has already aged. Stabilizers are the most effective when immediately
added to fuel fresh from the gas station. Without the use of a fuel stabilizer, fuel can deteriorate in as little as
2 weeks and begin to clog jets. Clogged jets due to bad fuel are not covered under warranty.

• Ensure stabilized fuel is circulated through all of the engine’s fuel system components prior to stor-
age.

• Drain fuel from carburetors that have open air vents.

• Store fuel tanks approximately 7/8 full, minimizing the amount of air space above the fuel inside the
fuel tank.

Storing completely full may allow some fuel spillage as the fuel expands during hot weather. Do not
attempt to seal a vented fuel system. The inability to vent could cause damage to the fuel tank or other
fuel system components.

• Minimize the time fuel is allowed to age in your fuel tank or other storage containers.

• Do not attempt to use fuel with ethanol content higher than 10%. If in doubt of the ethanol content
of the fuel, test the fuel to verify the amount of ethanol is not higher than 10%. Inexpensive test kits
are available. A web search will provide many sources. Just type: E10 Fuel Test Kit."

[Miner]

If being stored for long periods then a full tank of non-ethanol gasoline would be the best option to prevent accumulation of water.

Shell V-Power premium gasoline in Canada does not contain ethanol.

This is what I put in the Subaru GT (turbo requires 91+)

Link

That same link also says:

Shell V-Power contains the highest concentration of the Nitrogen Enriched Cleaning System.
With five times the cleaning agents required by federal standards, Shell V-Power helps to clean up performance-robbing engine gunk even faster than Shell Bronze gasoline.

Shell V-Power premium gasoline exceeds the TOP TIER Gasoline Detergent Standard and is Top Tier certified

ah FFS!!!

So when warranty work is voided because of these additives it is once again it is left to the consumer to pursue the dealer and the petro companies to recoup their loss <irk>.

Where is the government and car companies in all of this?

Might be switching to Shell. At least for the boat and small engines...probably the Turbo's...Truck too...

[Nd4SpdSe]

http://www.biofuelnet.ca/2013/09/26/can ... -mandates/
The Government of Canada has committed to attaining specific blending rates of biofuels into conventional fuels in order establish self-sufficiency of the biofuels industry:
5% ethanol in gasoline (E5) Implemented in 2010

Current provincial biofuels mandates (2013)
In addition, many provinces in Canada have equivalent or higher provincial mandates. There are concerns, however, that inconsistencies between federal and provincial requirements may create barriers to the the flow of biofuel trade within Canada.
Ontario : Ethanol: 7.5%

https://www.ontario.ca/environment-and- ... l-gasoline
The law
The Ministry of the Environment and Climate Change regulates the amount of ethanol found in gas sold in Ontario.
Gas companies, suppliers and sellers must include the minimum annual amount of ethanol in gasoline they distribute and/or sell.
By law, you must:
• maintain at least an annual average of 5% ethanol in the gas at all your facilities combined
• submit a compliance report to the government every year
• ensure that ethanol-blended fuel meets specific quality standards set out in regulations


http://www.shell.ca/en/products-service ... r/faq.html
Shell V-Power premium gasoline in Canada does not contain ethanol.

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/independent/2056.aspx
Does Ultra 94 contain ethanol? Does Petro-Canada still offer an ethanol-free gasoline?
Ultra 94 contains ethanol. Due to the fact that various fuel grades are blended at the point of sale, most grades of Petro-Canada fuel may now contain up to 10% ethanol. This represents a change from the previous state, where premium fuel was ethanol-free at Petro-Canada.

http://www.ultramarcst.ca/en/quebec/sta ... ce-diesel/
A federal government regulation requires that gasoline sold in Canada, since September 1st, 2010, contain an annual average of 5% ethanol, overall. Furthermore, various provincial regulations are also in effect in Canada, some of which have higher requirements in terms of ethanol content. At stations offering gasoline containing ethanol, the pumps carry stickers indicating that the gasoline may contain up to 10% ethanol.

http://www.esso.ca/ethanol
As of December 15, 2010, Canada’s Renewable Fuels Regulations require an average renewable fuel content of 5% in gasoline.*
*"Ethanol."Natural Resources Canada. 16 Nov. 2013. Government of Canada. 06 May 2014 http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/alternati ... hanol/3493 and http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/alternati ... hanol/3501


I'm not sure if it's accurate, but there's also http://pure-gas.org/ for information.
I tried Shell a few times since finding that out at the end of last year and i noticed a significant drop in fuel economy. Maybe I need to do a few tanks for it to relearn, but I've been pretty much all ESSO, Ultramar and CT for my 91 and my fuel economy has been stable between those guys. Sonoco really isn't popular in Canada anymore since Petro bought them out, but I used to run 94 religiously on my old Mx-3. PetroCanada in Quebec rarely has it, apparently the closest one with 94 from Quebec city is Montreal. Regardless, the Xterra doesn't seem to like Shell. My Mx-3 never did either to be honest...

[Nd4SpdSe]

Whoa, holy replies...that's what happens when it takes an hour to reply to a post... :S

[Miner]

Yamaha confirms and references the owners manual, E10 is okay but may require jetting changes to avoid engine damage.


Seems the fight isn't for 0% anymore, its to not use greater than 10% as only flex fuel vehicles should use it.


http://opei.org/ethanolwarning/

[Snafu]

Definitely use Shell 91 for anything that is not used often enough for changes of gas. Also keep the tank full to keep the amount of air in the tank as small as possible to reduce the chance of the gasoline from absorbing moisture or moisture condensing on the tank walls.

If there are enough fill-ups then ethanol/moisture would be less of a problem. Other additives are likely more of an issue.

Interesting page:

The key problem is that ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere. In fact, fuel with 10 percent ethanol absorbs up to 50 times more water than standard gasoline. Older gas tanks found in many classic cars vent to the atmosphere, increasing the likelihood that moisture will be absorbed into the gas tank at a rapid pace.

Older tanks are not the only problem. Most tanks on lawnmowers, snowblowers, generators...also vent to the air.
(link)

[Bow_Tied]

I didn't expect this thread to go here, but, cool. Carry on!

I store all my 4stroke small engines with 89 octane and whatever amount of fuel (~1/2 tank) and some Sta-Bil. Same with my classic car. I guess they are just too old and simple or the 10+ years of doing it have not caught up to me yet.

[Jayman]

I've been buying my gas at Shell for years, but not because of the Ethanol issue...

Still, good to know that the premium gas they sell doesn't have any ethanol in it.

[gtilford]

This web site will show you all the stations in your area that carry ethanol free gas, I have tracked my fuel mileage over the last 2 years now and I can tell as soon as I use fuel with ethanol in it. If I am going wheeling some where and do not have a choice it shows up in my fuel mileage right away. Fuel mileage using ethanol free gas is between 11.0 and 13.3 / 100km when i use gas that has ethanol it is up around 18 / 100km Now winter driving does change this some since It idles more often.
here is the link
http://pure-gas.org/

[Bow_Tied]

I am not well versed on Ethanol. If I have an engine that is designed for 87 octane would I better to stick with 87 that has ethanol or run ethanol free 91? The higher octane isn't going to do me any efficiency favours....

[Snafu]

IMO if it is a newer car and used regularly so the gas in the tank is continually changing then there should be no problem with the regular ethanol (barring any of the detergent issues starting this topic). I use it on my NA subaru. Only the turbo subaru receives shell 91.

If the car is only used once in a while and/or an older car (ex. used leaded fuel) I would keep it topped up with ethanol-free fuel.

I am not too sure what the deal is between the care manufacturers (their warranties) and the gasolines with detergents or other additives. It would be good to know what auto manufacturer's are calling "bad fuel". More than likely they would rather deal with a few irrate customers than any litigation with fuel companies